pardon me if i am wrong but i was told the reason why there are catholic vodouisants is b/c theres this graph showing all the saints and when you juxtapose they corrolate with a spirit or something like that. i can't recall correctly but i remember seeing something like that in new orleans
pardon me if i am wrong but i was told the reason why there are catholic vodouisants is b/c theres this graph showing all the saints and when you juxtapose they corrolate with a spirit or something like that. i can't recall correctly but i remember seeing something like that in new orleans
In MODERN HAITI, not colonial St. Domingue, Vodouisants use Roman Catholic lithographs of saints and virgins by choice. They are used because they mirror the attribute of some lwa or other, they wear the right color and hold the right objects. So we use them in contemporary Haitian Vodou because we like them and they are useful tools to help us concentrate, invoke and direct spiritual energy. That's all.
pardon me if i am wrong but i was told the reason why there are catholic vodouisants is b/c theres this graph showing all the saints and when you juxtapose they corrolate with a spirit or something like that. i can't recall correctly but i remember seeing something like that in new orleans
In MODERN HAITI, not colonial St. Domingue, Vodouisants use Roman Catholic lithographs of saints and virgins by choice. They are used because they mirror the attribute of some lwa or other, they wear the right color and hold the right objects. So we use them in contemporary Haitian Vodou because we like them and they are useful tools to help us concentrate, invoke and direct spiritual energy. That's all.
OR because the complete syncretism happened way before your and their time and as of right now, they don't have much choice about it as it's the way it's been taught.
OR because the complete syncretism happened way before your and their time and as of right now, they don't have much choice about it as it's the way it's been taught. :-)
People are used to those images, I grant you that. But if we didn't like them we wouldn't use them. We have other graphic representations of lwa, for example, vevers.
But for those wankers who are all in a tizzy (not you, zopope) because the image of St. Jacques Majeur, Santiago, who represents Ogoun in Rada is... dare I say it... I tremble... WHITE, check this out - the face a Haitian Vodouisant most often sees for Ogoun is the sweating black face of his Haitian neighbor undergoing POSSESSION by Ogoun. So calm down.
1) Your usage of every single African practice in the western hemisphere is suddeny part of the African Diaspora.
Those who practice the tradition be it from Santeria, Haitian Vodou, Obeah, etc, practice it from their own cultural development......African people on the Western part of or the Central part of the continent recognize things here and there but they never seen what none of us practice on this hemisphere.
All of our practice on the western hemisphere are unique......you do not need to go to West Africa to get the origin of any of the practices here because the origin is already here......Our African ancestors created a new format.
Do you see any Cubans flying to Nigeria to seek Yorubans to teach them how to practice Cuban Santeria correctly? No, you don't.
Do you see Brazilians flying to Angola to seek how the Africans practice their traditions? No, you don't.
2) While Mama Lola is a respected Haitian Mambo in Africa...she is foremost from the traditions of Haiti....not West Africa. If she's going to West Africa and putting things here and there into her traditional haitian ways.....I don't know what to say.......and many are doing this, which personally, I find that an insult to BOTH Africans and those residing in the western hemisphere.
Its based purely on romance and meshing things all over the place confusing everyone.
Your interest on how African practices (in the Western hemisphere) developed from West African traditions is based on a West African perspective.....It seems your using your Benin traditions and dropping it into other traditions because you believe the TRUTH of those traditions rest with what YOU practice currently....which you say is the origin of all practices...
What I am saying GFRANC is very simple. It is out of Africa that the slaves were sold into slavery. Sub-Sahara Africa is the ancestral home of the African American. We then were sold in the Carrabean where many stayed over 100 years (and took their African practices with them) before slaves came to the Americas. In Africa My ancestors practiced their traditions for centuries before they left the continent. Specifically my ancestry is out of Benin, West Africa. As I wanted to practice Vodun as my ancestors did I simply went to the place where my ancestors practiced their religion to learn and was caught by the Voduns. It is as simple as that? Traditional African religion pre-dates organized religion. Why would I go anywhere else to initiate into the religion of my ancestors when they lived in Benin? I simply do not understand your reasoning here. I have many friends; however, because their ancestry is out of Nigeria they have initiated into the Orisha.
If others do not want to go back to Africa to understand their African heritage that is on them. It has nothing to do with me. I am certainly not trying to convert anyone. I simply came on this forum to discuss Vodun. I have not attempted, by any means, to put my spin on anything. Simply, as a scholar and Vodunon to see how the religion evolved AFTER it left Africa.
I do not understand why you are attempting to porport me to be doing something that I am not.
As for Mama Lola, I met her in 1998. There was a wonderful exhibition on Haitian Vodun at one of the museums that she was a part of. In discussing Haitian Vodun the exhibition began with its roots out of Africa. It came with the slaves; so, one cannot help but discuss it. I introduced myself and explained my travels to Benin, etc. etc. She told me how she visited Benin and was blessed by Dagbo Hounon Houna (the Supreme Chef du Vodun) who was on the throne at that time and was blessed by him. She, as well as, other Mambos, Priest/Priestess come from all over the Diaspora to do ceremonies and be taught the secret ceremonies. These are simply the facts! I simply do not understand why you do not appear to acknowledge Africa's role in Haitian Vodun, Santaria etc. etc. Africa is where it all came from. But, if a person does not want to look to Africa for their experience that is their CHOICE! But why would it be an insult for someone to go to Africa and learn about Vodun, or Orisha, or anything else when that is where its origins are? Many of the practices were lost during the slave trade. As for ME I rather go back to the original power source...my ancestors...and that's what I did. People have choice.....
If someday I choose to learn more about Haitian Vodun I will go there; but, again, my choice (or my Vodun's choice) was for me to initiate in my ancestor's villages. The familial Vodun secrets are thus being able to be passed down to me because of it.
You are most welcome to your opinions....
Can we end this now?
WedoSi
P.S. As they say on the video the dance is for Papa Legba.
In MODERN HAITI, not colonial St. Domingue, Vodou use Roman Catholic lithographs of saints and virgins by choice. They are used because they mirror the attribute of some lwa or other, they wear the right color and hold the right objects. So we use them in contemporary Haitian Vo because we like them and they are useful tools to help us concentrate, invoke and direct spiritual energy. That's all.
You are correct in this. What happened is that the colonial Haitians attempted to hide their Vodun practices behind the Bible Saints etc. because they were not allowed to practice openly. I mentioned this in an earlier post; but, the Catholic Church actually memicks the hierarchy in African Vodun. And remember, traditional African religions pre-date the church.
Supreme Chef du Vodun......Pope
Supreme Chefs of the Various Pantheons of Vodun (Ex: Supreme Chef du Vodun Mami Wata...my husband).......The Cardinals
The Priest in their private temples........The Catholic Priests
The Vodunsi............The Catholic parishioners
The Various Voduns (Mami Wata etc).......The Saints
They were able to use the Saints (in particular) to continue to worship the Voduns (lwas)
The actual hierarchy, it appears, was lost; but, if you look at the Catholic Church you are looking at, much of, African Vodun.
Hence the saying: "One must be a good Catholic to be a good Mambo/Hougan" etc.
pardon me if i am wrong but i was told the reason why there are catholic vodouisants is b/c theres this graph showing all the saints and when you juxtapose they corrolate with a spirit or something like that. i can't recall correctly but i remember seeing something like that in new orleans
In MODERN HAITI, not colonial St. Domingue, Vodouisants use Roman Catholic lithographs of saints and virgins by choice. They are used because they mirror the attribute of some lwa or other, they wear the right color and hold the right objects. So we use them in contemporary Haitian Vodou because we like them and they are useful tools to help us concentrate, invoke and direct spiritual energy. That's all.
OR because the complete syncretism happened way before your and their time and as of right now, they don't have much choice about it as it's the way it's been taught.
I am not sure that I am getting the quotes right, but let me just say that most Haitian Vodou are Roman Catholics, and it's very important to them that their children receive First Holy Communion.
I'm an Episcopalian, probably the only Episcopalian Mambo in the world, and we are just Catholic without the Pope, really, LOL.
There are some Vodou who hate the Roman Catholic church and with good reason, and refuse to have anything to do with them. But that's a very small minority.[/size][/color]
How do they navigate this Mambo Racine? Do they go to Mass and then to the Vodou temple when needed? This reminds me of Africans. Many go to church on Sunday and to the Vodunon at night. Are the two similar?
Also how to YOU navigate how you worship, in the church, and serve the lwa?
I am not sure that I am getting the quotes right, but let me just say that most Haitian Vodou are Roman Catholics, and it's very important to them that their children receive First Holy Communion.
I'm an Episcopalian, probably the only Episcopalian Mambo in the world, and we are just Catholic without the Pope, really, LOL.
There are some Vodou who hate the Roman Catholic church and with good reason, and refuse to have anything to do with them. But that's a very small minority.[/size][/color]
How do they navigate this Mambo Racine? Do they go to Mass and then to the Vodou temple when needed? This reminds me of Africans. Many go to church on Sunday and to the Vodunon at night. Are the two similar?
Also how to YOU navigate how you worship, in the church, and serve the lwa?
WedoSi
This is told as a lightheartened joke in Haiti, but it's so true in many cases:
Our people stay up all night on Saturdays' beating drums, having fun and servicing the loas. In a few hours, they put on their Sundays' best, so fresh and so clean, and go to Church.
My parents were staunchly Catholic and wanted nothing to do with Vodou. In Port-au-Prince, I lived across a valley to a Houngan's house. Not exactly close and if I were to do a straight crossing by foot would probably take some 20 minutes, but when they did ceremonies, the sound reverberated across the valley and made it sound just feet away. Anyway, a lot of Saturdays nights, lots of drumming and bambou blowing would come from the place and at times as a kid, I found it annoying because I wanted to go to sleep, but I was having difficulty doing so with the constant noise and music that got tedious after an hour or so. Not to say that many times I was batshit scared because of a lot the nuns at school and people in my family/friends said about Houngans, Mambos and Vodou. My mom didn't like those night music at all and would call "them" hypocrites because come tomorrow, they'd go to Church praying to God while they had spent all night worshipping their other "gods" or "devils". Needless to say, in Haiti, because of propaganda and lack of knowledge/understanding and exposure, a lot of people's views of Vodou are ignorant.
