Yes. Today I was listening to signal fm and a Haitian Senator was discussing what had been done by the Haitian government and what needs to be done when a caller called and reminded her that the earthquake was God's doing and the only true solution was prayer. The Senator who had been discussing concrete solutions, had to reassure him that she was indeed a Christian. Creepy.
yes they do need a despiritualization of sorts. too quickly they beleive that things happen for some ridiculous reason or another. if they paid more attention to science and nature in general they would see what's in front of them. nature nor science do not hide, you just have to pay attention and make deductions based on your findings.
While leaving haiti on one of my trips, I started a conversation with a French young lady returning home to France.
We talked about Haiti and what was needed to get it going...and haitian culture.
She mentioned the over reliance on God/spirits among the haitian populace...and compared it to old pre-modern France.
Can a people whose cultural frame of mind is GOD WILL PROVIDE....IT MUST BE GOD's WISH......ever take control of it's destiny????
Is Haiti and blacks in general in need of "DESPIRITUALIZATION"???
What say YOU??
Yes. It is good to have faith, a belief of some sort. Without it we see the undue panic and frenzy sweeping the U.S. with this economic crisis--as if a large portion of the world hasn't been suffering in much the same manner for centuries. Get over yourselves people; have the faith that things will get better even when they seem like they are getting worse. Without a belief in "god will provide", life is far to depressing.
As to the other assertion, "it must be god's wish" that type of fatalist thought is crippling. However, such thought is not epidemic to religious thought alone; it is present in a "secular" mindset as well. The absolute faith we see in the market, in a free market ideology, is akin to the both the gospel that "god will provide" (insert market for god) and too "its the market's wish"--as if there are no human factors in the mix causing such catastrophes as the foreclosure crisis. We know there are but people knowingly partook in economic practices that they knew were faulty but they also knew, had the utmost faith in the notion, that eventually the market would "mysteriously" correct itself.
This is not solely a religious thing; this is a Judeo-Christian cultural mindset present in all manners of Western life. Thus Haiti and blacks are not in need of "despiritualization" as "whites" are far from despiritualized. If anything, if we are going to continue with this thought experiment, Haiti and blacks need only substitute god with the market and hence with capitalism to "progress" and thus move from the pre-modern to the modern.
But as I don't believe in this whole linear notion of progress that this thought experiment relies on, i.e. the transition from the pre-modern to modern, or the assumption by the French woman that her culture is "despiritualized" and hence modern, in every sense of the word, I don't think Haiti or blacks need to be "despiritualized". We just need a bit of opportunity, vision, capable leadership and capital and even with our "spirtualization" we'd be a-ok.
While leaving haiti on one of my trips, I started a conversation with a French young lady returning home to France.
We talked about Haiti and what was needed to get it going...and haitian culture.
She mentioned the over reliance on God/spirits among the haitian populace...and compared it to old pre-modern France.
Can a people whose cultural frame of mind is GOD WILL PROVIDE....IT MUST BE GOD's WISH......ever take control of it's destiny????
Is Haiti and blacks in general in need of "DESPIRITUALIZATION"???
What say YOU??
YOU called me booby? Actually, I like Jaraqua's answer. It is not a matter of "despiritualization" but actually understanding the true nature of God (Spirits). God provides the way; but, you must do your part to make it happen. For instance... A young man might be looking for a job! He prays to find work. God wants to answer his prayer and has; but, if the young man doesn't put out the resumes, follow up on his interviews and do the work needed...he will never see that job! It is NOT gonna simply jump in his lap! That is the meaning of God helps those who help themselves.
Yes. It is good to have faith, a belief of some sort. Without it we see the undue panic and frenzy sweeping the U.S. with this economic crisis--as if a large portion of the world hasn't been suffering in much the same manner for centuries. Get over yourselves people; have the faith that things will get better even when they seem like they are getting worse. Without a belief in "god will provide", life is far to depressing.
As to the other assertion, "it must be god's wish" that type of fatalist thought is crippling. However, such thought is not epidemic to religious thought alone; it is present in a "secular" mindset as well. The absolute faith we see in the market, in a free market ideology, is akin to the both the gospel that "god will provide" (insert market for god) and too "its the market's wish"--as if there are no human factors in the mix causing such catastrophes as the foreclosure crisis. We know there are but people knowingly partook in economic practices that they knew were faulty but they also knew, had the utmost faith in the notion, that eventually the market would "mysteriously" correct itself.
This is not solely a religious thing; this is a Judeo-Christian cultural mindset present in all manners of Western life. Thus Haiti and blacks are not in need of "despiritualization" as "whites" are far from despiritualized. If anything, if we are going to continue with this thought experiment, Haiti and blacks need only substitute god with the market and hence with capitalism to "progress" and thus move from the pre-modern to the modern.
But as I don't believe in this whole linear notion of progress that this thought experiment relies on, i.e. the transition from the pre-modern to modern, or the assumption by the French woman that her culture is "despiritualized" and hence modern, in every sense of the word, I don't think Haiti or blacks need to be "despiritualized". We just need a bit of opportunity, vision, capable leadership and capital and even with our "spirtualization" we'd be a-ok.
Very interesting and thought provoking Nat99.
The big difference I see however is that faith in the market is not absolute while God/spirit can NEVER be wrong or questioned in the mind of the believer.
I also notice a difference in the usage of God/spirits; the west (the leaders) act and then claim it is/was god's wish...as in the concept of manifest destiny.....and the justifications for slavery and forced colonialism....the crusades etc.
We on the other hand tend to have a more passive relation with such God/spirits.
Instead of substituting God/spirit for the market, maybe what is needed is a change in the relationship.....where we claim God/spirit is behind our actions instead of us being led blindly by God/spirit and accepting what we believe such God/spirit have brought upon us.
Yes. It is good to have faith, a belief of some sort. Without it we see the undue panic and frenzy sweeping the U.S. with this economic crisis--as if a large portion of the world hasn't been suffering in much the same manner for centuries. Get over yourselves people; have the faith that things will get better even when they seem like they are getting worse. Without a belief in "god will provide", life is far to depressing.
As to the other assertion, "it must be god's wish" that type of fatalist thought is crippling. However, such thought is not epidemic to religious thought alone; it is present in a "secular" mindset as well. The absolute faith we see in the market, in a free market ideology, is akin to the both the gospel that "god will provide" (insert market for god) and too "its the market's wish"--as if there are no human factors in the mix causing such catastrophes as the foreclosure crisis. We know there are but people knowingly partook in economic practices that they knew were faulty but they also knew, had the utmost faith in the notion, that eventually the market would "mysteriously" correct itself.
This is not solely a religious thing; this is a Judeo-Christian cultural mindset present in all manners of Western life. Thus Haiti and blacks are not in need of "despiritualization" as "whites" are far from despiritualized. If anything, if we are going to continue with this thought experiment, Haiti and blacks need only substitute god with the market and hence with capitalism to "progress" and thus move from the pre-modern to the modern.
But as I don't believe in this whole linear notion of progress that this thought experiment relies on, i.e. the transition from the pre-modern to modern, or the assumption by the French woman that her culture is "despiritualized" and hence modern, in every sense of the word, I don't think Haiti or blacks need to be "despiritualized". We just need a bit of opportunity, vision, capable leadership and capital and even with our "spirtualization" we'd be a-ok.
Very interesting and thought provoking Nat99.
The big difference I see however is that faith in the market is not absolute while God/spirit can NEVER be wrong or questioned in the mind of the believer.
I also notice a difference in the usage of God/spirits; the west (the leaders) act and then claim it is/was god's wish...as in the concept of manifest destiny.....and the justifications for slavery and forced colonialism....the crusades etc.
We on the other hand tend to have a more passive relation with such God/spirits.
Instead of substituting God/spirit for the market, maybe what is needed is a change in the relationship.....where we claim God/spirit is behind our actions instead of us being led blindly by God/spirit and accepting what we believe such God/spirit have brought upon us.
Very interesting! In the above conversation God/spirit is treated as a "concept" or "construct". Whether he/she (spirits) actually exists is unimportant. I would suppose then that the believer is also not considered... only entities in a philosophical equation. Therein lies the mistake! What say YOU gunner?
Very interesting! In the above conversation God/spirit is treated as a "concept" or "construct". Whether he/she (spirits) actually exists is unimportant. I would suppose then that the believer is also not considered... only entities in a philosophical equation. Therein lies the mistake! What say YOU gunner?
Wedosi
You are correct sister Ayido.
But why do you see this approach as a mistake?
If we do invole the irrational believer as in "you know who"....then this conversation would not be possible.
Very interesting! In the above conversation God/spirit is treated as a "concept" or "construct". Whether he/she (spirits) actually exists is unimportant. I would suppose then that the believer is also not considered... only entities in a philosophical equation. Therein lies the mistake! What say YOU gunner?
Wedosi
You are correct sister Ayido.
But why do you see this approach as a mistake?
If we do invole the irrational believer as in "you know who"....then this conversation would not be possible.
Actually I think you are correct on your last point! Maybe the approach is not so much a "mistake" as "difficult to do" as a believer. In order to speak about God/spirit(s), as a construct or concept, one must have a certain disconnect or detachment, from the subject matter, as a non-believer or skeptic would have. As a staunch "believer" in spirits...I quantify that ...as a person who "knows" that God/spirit(s) exist I would only serve to pollute a potentially informative and objective conversation. I could not be trusted to stay on point...
Actually I think you are correct on your last point! Maybe the approach is not so much a "mistake" as "difficult to do" as a believer. In order to speak about God/spirit(s), as a construct or concept, one must have a certain disconnect or detachment, from the subject matter, as a non-believer or skeptic would have. As a staunch "believer" in spirits...I quantify that ...as a person who "knows" that God/spirit(s) exist I would only serve to pollute a potentially informative and objective conversation. I could not be trusted to stay on point...
yes they do need a despiritualization of sorts. too quickly they beleive that things happen for some ridiculous reason or another. if they paid more attention to science and nature in general they would see what's in front of them. nature nor science do not hide, you just have to pay attention and make deductions based on your findings.
can you elaborate a little bit more as to what they will see in front of them? What has the Haitian people have had in front of their eyes --besides health problems-- but could not see it because they were no paying attention to nature or Sciences?
Actually, I like Jaraqua's answer. It is not a matter of "despiritualization" but actually understanding the true nature of God (Spirits). God provides the way; but, you must do your part to make it happen. For instance... A young man might be looking for a job! He prays to find work. God wants to answer his prayer and has; but, if the young man doesn't put out the resumes, follow up on his interviews and do the work needed...he will never see that job! It is NOT gonna simply jump in his lap! That is the meaning of God helps those who help themselves.
